Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Ethics.


Ennis
November 13th, 2001, 03:57 PM
|-Hacking Culture-|

Author- Ennis
E-Mail- nho@hackermail.com

This is a very commen type of tutorial on ethics and some guy asked me to post something on ethics in the tutorial section so here goes. Enjoy!

part a. Types Of Hackers
______________________________________________

In a new era of hacking it is vitally important for the older generation to keep a sense of ethics and values alive, or we may simple add to the media's 'negative' view of hackers.
It is therefore the reason I have chosen to add an ethics section here.
Hopefully by introducing the many types of hackers in the world you can choose the right type and understand what a true hacker is.
I wont begin with the obvious dictionary defination of a hacker [seeker of knowledge etc.] but try to introduce the attitude of various stereotyped hackers.
However in my opinion real hackers come under no defination and are just people interested in computers regardless of whether they spend years learning the finer points of programming or years gaining root on a lame admins system.

There are many names for different classes of hackers.

The Script Kiddie
* Lamers
* These 'hackers' or wannabes manipulate tools written by others to achieve respect. At the moment I would consider there presence as widespread. They give hackers a bad name and usually use trojans [RATS].
How often have you been on IRC and felt their presence, SUB7 scans are their usual tactic as well as the infamous DoS attacks.
* It is these Script Kiddies who have demised the respectful name of hackers into the anti-media tag it carries today.
* In my humble opinion Virii users come under this category but not in the case of those who have personally written the virus.
* Do not fall under this category if you want true respect.
* Often use Windows and AOL and try to hack hotmail.

Newbies/Neophytes
* Next generation of hackers
* These are the learners of the hacking world, their main aim is to gain knowledge.
* They begin as script kiddies often indulging in such activities but quickly learn it is lame.
* Most have the respect from elders as they want to learn and avoid the simplicity of simply becoming a script kiddie.
* It is a joy to see such people grow as they install Linux and no longer get flamed on BBS boards, it is these people who are the future of hacking.

The l33t
* Average Hackers
* The use of numbers and symbols in hacker culture is becoming lame but is the way for a small generation of hackers who are usually fairly good hackers who never become too serious but have a general understanding of computers. You know the type who write like this 5h1+ 1m l33t ¬0w m0+h3rfu<3r5.
* May indulge in defacement for message purposes.
* Are known to get involved in hacker wargames.
* Usually have websites with good grafix.

BBS and Warez d00ds
* The current generation of hackers are BBS boys , they spend long amounts of time reading and posting on message boards learning and passing on knowledge.
* There are numerous old boards with great history and new ones are appearing everyday.
* Usually they are fairly large communities and at times get involved in long flame wars with newbies, script kiddies and lamers.
* Helpful at times.
* It is important that people realise many highly known boards are visited by FBI etc. to keep tabs on the latest exploits, defacements etc.


Crackers
* Also known as Black Hats
* These guys come in two forms, Software crackers who get programs for free like warez d00ds and the evil BlackHat crackers.
* True Crackers are intelligent guys, they can in essence hack and can easily bypass security.
* They are not to be mistaken with script kiddies as true crackers know their stuff, they dont use other peoples tools and are usually as smart as an ethical WhiteHat hacker.
* The old age debate of Hacker/Cracker has been well-reviewed and it is true that the media should technically use the word cracker when describing people who have stolen credit card numbers or so on.

The Ethical/True Hacker/WhiteHat
* The real elite [not l33t].
* Well these guys are the people who arent really around any more, they are the people who once hacked but probably stopped due to the upsurge of lame script kiddies of today. They are not in large numbers these days so if you know one keep with him or her and you will learn
* Programmers with many languages
* Unix or Linux experts.
* Respected members of the hacking community.
* Helpful and non-destructive.
*

Here is the list of White Hat rules taken from a tutorial by

z0nic
with info by Carolyn MyAnal
Ascii Work by -IceCanibus
who are apart of the r00t-access crew.
"
-Thou shalt respect knowledge and freedom of information above all else in cyberlife. Thou shalt respect all systems and treat them as you would treat your own.
-Thou shalt develop an addiction to knowledge, gaining it all the time and taking pride in new knowledge you have gained and can shre with others in your own name.
-Thou shalt only take credit for things you have discovered yourself and give FULL credit to all revisions.
-Thou shalt not hack systems to profit from any information contained within.
-Thou shalt not damage or modify or make copies
of any system whatsoever With exception to log
files which are advisable to prevent detection
-Thou shalt not make use of other peoples programs more than you make use of raw methods and invent your own.
-Thou shalt e-mail every sysadmin from an anonymous account to inform him/her of the flaws in the system and where he/she can download a patch, do not fix the system yourself.
-Thou shalt not intentionally harm a systems bandwidth and thou shalt not crash a system intentionally [including DoS]
-Thou shalt share thine knowledge freely, not profit from any knowledge and assist all people who require knowledge.
-Thou shalt not take stupid risks of yourself [or anybody else for that matter] on any system. This thine duty to keep all hackers out of prison.

" end of piece.

OK, back to me.

The Phreakers
* The trend of phreaking is nearly as old as hacking itself and is hacking in the sense that it involves love of technology, the want to learn how to understand communications.
* Many phreakers are legends in the world of hacking.
* Phreaking is fun and well respected if done correctly.

The Legends
* Famous crackers such as Kevin Mitnick whose jail term is a long webpage defacement issue. More recently Rapheal Gray and of course the infamous MOD group with such legends as Phiber Optik and the LOD group.
* There is another text on famous crackers so lets not go into this now.

The Lost
* These guys are like myths and are known as GreyHats, they are excellent hackers with the ability to hack many of the worlds greatest systems but dont and are said to be the old hackers who no longer speak.
* If they exist they are good as although Great Hackers get the feds at their door or go to jail Truly Great Hackers are never caught....

E.O.F.

+Well not exactly but the list of types of hackers ends and there are new types growing so I ask which type will still be around in 10 years time, can the youth be trusted to become ethical white hats or are we doomed to live in the script kiddie cracker malicious world that is so rapidly taking over or will the mysterious GreyHats rise and take over.
Who knows its up to the people.

Alcatraz
November 13th, 2001, 07:50 PM
I like it, I've always thought reading about hacking ethics was fun.

SolidPez
November 13th, 2001, 08:06 PM
Nice, but are you saying Windows is a OS for script kiddies (AOL is understandable)

Ennis
November 13th, 2001, 08:17 PM
No. However it's a pretty easy to use OS and there's only so much you can do with Windows before you get bored, in my opinion, I hardly expect everyone to agree with me!
It's just what I think.

hehbris
November 13th, 2001, 08:45 PM
In a new era of hacking it is vitally important for the older generation to keep a sense of ethics and values alive, or we may simple add to the media's 'negative' view of hackers.

I take it you are an 'old' generation 'hacker'?

I wont begin with the obvious dictionary defination of a hacker [seeker of knowledge etc.]

That is not the dictionary definition, that is a cliche used by posers.

* It is these Script Kiddies who have demised the respectful name of hackers into the anti-media tag it carries today.

I have never heard of any sub7 attack being reported by the media.

* These 'hackers' or wannabes manipulate tools written by others to achieve respect. At the moment I would consider there presence as widespread.
* Do not fall under this category if you want true respect.

Contradiction?

* These are the learners of the hacking world, their main aim is to gain knowledge.

how many forums, chat rooms, news groups and e-mails are flooded by these clueless people asking for help to deface webpages and crack e-mail.

* They begin as script kiddies often indulging in such activities but quickly learn it is lame.
* Most have the respect from elders as they want to learn and avoid the simplicity of simply becoming a script kiddie.
* Do not fall under this category if you want true respect.

need i comment?

* It is a joy to see such people grow as they install Linux and no longer get flamed on BBS boards, it is these people who are the future of hacking.

last i looked installing and navigating through linux does not mean you actually know anything. You can just as easy learn how to use dos.

* Programmers with many languages

Knowing one language in essence is equivalent to learning all as it is mere changes in syntax in the most part. I know C/C++/JAVA/PERL/VB/HTML/JAVASCRIPT/SHELLSCRIPT/SQL does this make me a hacker?

I can go on and on however the day is now over and it is time to go home.

Quit labeling people.

Ennis
November 13th, 2001, 09:33 PM
I take it you are an 'old' generation 'hacker'?
NO, did I mention being one?

That is not the dictionary definition, that is a cliche used by posers.
Perhaps so. I can quote sad loner who stalks MsMittens all day.

I have never heard of any sub7 attack being reported by the media.
Oh! So script kiddies are great people then , I take it all back.

how many forums, chat rooms, news groups and e-mails are flooded by these clueless people asking for help to deface webpages and crack e-mail.
At least they dont stalk women, make almost derogatory comments about people's cultures, tear apart an attempt at helping people learn all in the name of bigotry.


last i looked installing and navigating through linux does not mean you actually know anything. You can just as easy learn how to use dos.
No, just because you installed Linux for youre own personal reasons dosent make you a hacker, once again did I say it did?

Knowing one language in essence is equivalent to learning all as it is mere changes in syntax in the most part. I know C/C++/JAVA/PERL/VB/HTML/JAVASCRIPT/SHELLSCRIPT/SQL does this make me a hacker?
No, but a hacker would need to know many languages.

I can go on and on however the day is now over and it is time to go home.
And please Hehbris dont come back from your home.

Quit labeling people.
Ill leave that to you, bigot.


Ok, Hehbris I'm gettin sick of you now. You are beginning to show youre ignorance towards me lately and Im finding it quite sad. You want constant flame wars, Im reluctantly game.
I have no respect for you or any of youre comments and only reply as they are an attempt at undermining me.

You are a bigot, foolish, ignorant, childish, lonely, stalking leech and please remember you are a hinderance to the learning at antionline and I hope the rest here agree with me and look past his childish flame to the help Im trying to offer here.

Ennis. :mad:

hehbris
November 13th, 2001, 09:38 PM
1) posting messages on a forum is not considered stalking in this jurisdiction
2) irish is not a race, it is a nationality

Ennis
November 13th, 2001, 09:41 PM
I stand corrected due to my sheer annoyance I wrote this quickly but I mean all I say.

Ennis
November 13th, 2001, 09:44 PM
You may not be a stalker but you are a sheer annoyance and I have changed rascist.

drkevorkian
November 14th, 2001, 03:27 AM
as a respected member of this community ennis, you shouldn't become peeved at others opinions, especially ones that are provoked by a somewhat provocative post (i know, provoked and provocative in the same sentence, peewww) but posts about hacker ethics are liable to evoke (how about that one) passionate responses by guilty as charged conciences (run on sentence - 5).

by the way, irish is a race... a race to the pub!!! (i'm irish-american, mother straight off the queen mary, born in county cork)

Ennis
November 14th, 2001, 12:32 PM
Maybe I shouldnt get annoyed by his comments but it's just hehbris that envokes my rage. I avoid getting annoted by anyone here and I like almost every here, in fact 99.9% of the users here I respect but please excuse my anger on this one.

Therealmaster
November 14th, 2001, 04:57 PM
He He nice tut. Ennis, always enjoy reading other peoples views on hacker ethics and it is true that we have been gettin a bad name over the recent years. However why would an elite hacker specifically need to be a *NIX expert in your opinion?
As for hehbris I don't think that i would worry too much about him. although get annoyed with the guy by all means
And hehbris, it how much of those languages do you actually know IN DEPTH (sorry for shouting ;) ). I can say that ive used as many as 15 languages (i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript) but i only really know 4 of them in any great detail

hehbris
November 14th, 2001, 05:37 PM
(i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript)
(i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript)
(i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript) (i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript) (i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript)

what language is C derived from?
do you mean C++? C++ is a very much different language.

Oh and i know them all in depth, i use them all every single day

Therealmaster
November 14th, 2001, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by hehbris
(i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript)
(i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript)
(i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript) (i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript) (i don't consider C to be a lang as it is merely a subscript)


why so many quotes from me??????

Originally posted by hehbris


Well C is derived from the B language (for Bell labs) but that is not what i meant whatsoever. When i say C is a subscript i mean that it is really part of the C++ lang now not that it is derived from it.

Originally posted by hehbris
[B
Oh and i know them all in depth, i use them all every single day

You use all 8 languages every day (not inc. C) is this part of your job, otherwise i find it difficult to believe that you have any need to use them all every single day.

hehbris
November 14th, 2001, 06:40 PM
your logic fails me. How can you not consider C to be a language when it is the foundation of many other languages and the most important language ever created?

and yes i use them all

currently I am creating a standalone application version of my company's entire system written in JSP. I am writing this in java. The program requires custom compression so this is being written as a java native interface in C++. The files to be compressed come from an oracle database meaning i need SQL to retrieve them. The data is retrieved by a PERL application that makes SQL calls. The other day there was a bug found in some source code, right now there are about 120 files in this project, so I created a PERL script to parse them and find the error. This is but a small example. I find use for all these languages in an 'everyday' setting not literally everyday you buffoon.

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by hehbris
your logic fails me. How can you not consider C to be a language when it is the foundation of many other languages and the most important language ever created?

and yes i use them all

currently I am creating a standalone application version of my company's entire system written in JSP. I am writing this in java. The program requires custom compression so this is being written as a java native interface in C++. The files to be compressed come from an oracle database meaning i need SQL to retrieve them. The data is retrieved by a PERL application that makes SQL calls. The other day there was a bug found in some source code, right now there are about 120 files in this project, so I created a PERL script to parse them and find the error. This is but a small example. I find use for all these languages in an 'everyday' setting not literally everyday you buffoon.

for all this knowledge.. do you have a website?

Kinda lame for you to be this terrific programmer.. and not even have a website.

hehbris
November 14th, 2001, 06:52 PM
http://www.snickerbarf.com

would not having a webpage make me 'lame'?

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by hehbris
http://www.snickerbarf.com

would not having a webpage make me 'lame'?

lets see talented programmer (including HTML)

and no website.. yes.. it would be irony.


snicker barf..

heh.. explains your outrage.. your from canada..

hehbris
November 14th, 2001, 06:58 PM
Um, i'm afraid your use of irony is completely misguided.
How is being able to program and having a webpage related? To show off? uh get a clue dumb one

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 06:59 PM
get a clue dumb one.

hehbris
November 14th, 2001, 07:09 PM
don't make a habit of this, because i have just as much on you as you have on me.

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 07:13 PM
Ok.. The way Hehbris SOUNDS.. he knows programming to an extent. i will respect that much of him..

But to verbally knock hackers code..

Big nono..


Hehbris.. Relax in these forums.. You do not realize how many people are offended by your words.. I think JP told me that he get 400,000 hits a month... Lets say that only 6,000 users make those hits.. but that still is alot of people..

Dont upset the wrong ones.. ;)

Dave Timerman.

hehbris
November 14th, 2001, 07:17 PM
you should try call block before you prank call someone next time

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 07:20 PM
wasnt a prank call.. just wanted to return your comment.


;)

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 07:24 PM
Ennis you no longer post in this forum?

hehbris
November 14th, 2001, 07:28 PM
and the second call ?
oh and to be of aid to your already so large brain,
I did not insult any 'hacker ethics', i merely pointed out flaws and inconsistencies in this 'paper' that was full of bias and cliches to begin with. And how can you tell that i am a 'coder' based on the few seconds of laughter from me to you.

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by hehbris
and the second call ?
oh and to be of aid to your already so large brain,
I did not insult any 'hacker ethics', i merely pointed out flaws and inconsistencies in this 'paper' that was full of bias and cliches to begin with. And how can you tell that i am a 'coder' based on the few seconds of laughter from me to you.

I called you only once.. Its expensive to call canada..

;) And the whole FORUM and you bragging you know alot of languages is probably why I am assuming you know programming..


Like I said.. Relax.. If I can get your info... I bet alot of other users can too.

hehbris
November 14th, 2001, 07:37 PM
relax? let me tell you something right now, if my life is disturbed at all, you will have big problems with me.

the end
dont reply because i dont care anymore and i wont read it.

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 07:42 PM
OMFG.

I am not threatening you man.. Dont mean to freak you out.. But your info is on the net just like mine is... Heh.. If you seriously want to talk about how i got your info I will talk to you... Cuz I am not here to freak ya out.. ;)

<--- Feels bad..

But just making you aware like everyone else.. information about you can be found on the net usually within minutes.. Yeah its not fun.. but its public info.. ;)

So be nice to eachother.

hehbris
November 14th, 2001, 07:46 PM
I SAID DON'T REPLY
im not ****ing stupid, i know and to do a whois lookup

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 07:48 PM
You replied.. ;)

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 08:09 PM
I noticed.. that only Hehbris and I were posting to this forum.. ;) 31 posts in one day is like a record isnt it?

Ennis
November 14th, 2001, 08:45 PM
Ennis you no longer post in this forum?

Jesus I only left for an hour or two and this thread has went from 1 page to 3. Th reason I am not gonna get involved in your argument is that it's getting out of hand.
I was thinkin bout leaving the Antionline forum's altogether today for a reason I would rather not discuss.
I'm gonna see how I feel after a while but I fear my days are almost over here.

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Ennis


Jesus I only left for an hour or two and this thread has went from 1 page to 3. Th reason I am not gonna get involved in your argument is that it's getting out of hand.
I was thinkin bout leaving the Antionline forum's altogether today for a reason I would rather not discuss.
I'm gonna see how I feel after a while but I fear my days are almost over here.

Aww Ennis. dont leave man...

;) Ya I must apologize for freakin hehbris out..
Sorry Hehbris.. ;) Hopefully no hard feelings..
I had the best intentions..

So anyways.. Why are you leavin man?

Ennis
November 14th, 2001, 09:09 PM
Its nothing to do with you man, its a cummalation of various issue's.
Anyway Im gonna make a major post just to leave a mark soon.

evilseed
November 14th, 2001, 09:44 PM
This is sad news....

Ennis with 405 posts leaving antionline...

drkevorkian
November 15th, 2001, 01:35 AM
ennis, see what you started??? by the way, no pouting allowed....

hilarious yet disturbing....

as for you two - break it up aforen i slap you both upside da melon head... j/k

evilseed
November 15th, 2001, 04:08 AM
hehehhahahaha!!!


IT is all ENNIS's fault.

Therealmaster
November 16th, 2001, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by hehbris
your logic fails me.

Is this because it is logical????

Originally posted by hehbris
How can you not consider C to be a language when it is the foundation of many other languages and the most important language ever created?


Quite easily. It is an important language but is now part of C++, and saying it is the most imortant language ever created is you opinion, how about assembly or machine code, i mean EVERYTHING is based on machine code is it not???????

Originally posted by hehbris
and yes i use them all


Congratulations, (although you are a programmer)

Originally posted by hehbris
[snip errelevant stuff] I find use for all these languages in an 'everyday' setting not literally everyday you buffoon.


There is absolutely no need to be so insulting, no wonder you ahve so many negative antipoints.

E-1
November 16th, 2001, 12:18 PM
Amazing.

To see the discussive talents of so many great minds in action.

Many Thanks to Ennis and Evil....you rejoined tha land of Humour. (or humor depending on the local spelling variety!)

Flame wars? cant we just have a BBQ instead?
;)

evilseed
November 16th, 2001, 06:04 PM
I sure get alot of red antipoints..

heh.. I even got one for this post.. (Predicting is a beautiful thing)

Alcatraz
November 17th, 2001, 01:32 AM
Damn that conversation between evilseed and hehbris was scary!! Hehbris has serious issues.

I wasn't here in the Seb-G days, who's worse?

Highlander
November 17th, 2001, 01:40 AM
Ethics are when an ISP trys to throw you in Jail when you tell them they have a security problem!

Franklin Werren
http://www.bagpipes.net

evilseed
November 17th, 2001, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by Alcatraz
Damn that conversation between evilseed and hehbris was scary!! Hehbris has serious issues.

I wasn't here in the Seb-G days, who's worse?

No kidding.

hillbilly75
November 17th, 2001, 08:21 PM
Great Post. As a student in IT I am relieved to see someone has the knowledge to pass the ethics portion on to us newbies!

E-1
November 18th, 2001, 03:54 PM
Ennis

As another silently learning newbie...it was good to see some sort of 'insider views' of the ethics of 'security'.

Whether the points you raise are valid to all perceptions, it is still nescessary to raise them, even if it is to provoke Discussion that is creative.
It is not whether a 'bill of ethics' is accepted by all, but that a unified view that can be presented to the great Opiate of the masses, aka The Informed media, that will prevent the hysteria generated from the defacements and attacks of a few script kiddies.

Thanks for the thoughtful ponderings.

Ennis
December 1st, 2001, 12:33 PM
Thanks guys for the kind words! ;)

[WebCarnage]
December 1st, 2001, 10:29 PM
My congradulations and thanks go to EvilSeed and Hebris for the laughs. Yet in the end EvilSeed seems to be in the lead 2-1. Many Positive Antipoints to you both though. And Ennis, what is this talk of leaving. I know I'm not that good of a friend, but (I must be a newbie/neophyte according to...:P) I look up to you highly and would regret never learning from you. Although I can't honestly say that because I have. Your Ethics are pretty fascinating, with a couple of exceptions here and there of course. But nothing that would stop the Scripty (a.k.a. lamer) from benifiting (i.e. - anology: The Bible, hehehe). I love reading your posts, it'll be a sad day when you leave. I'm not sure what happens to 'retired' Senior Members. We'll have to talk to JP about that. Maybe you get a free (lousy) T-Shirt mailed to you or something, who knows? But hey, good luck where ever youg going to next.
----
Can't we all just get along?

Rewandythal
December 1st, 2001, 10:33 PM
Get a long? Do you know how much longs cost??

lol...

Sorry - I'm in a semi-sarcastic-semi-humerous mood at the moment... Yeah I agreee everyone shoudl try to get on with each other, it makes the world a better place (although it's gonna take a lot for this planet to become a better place!)

s0nIc
December 2nd, 2001, 12:42 AM
hmmm.. nice post there d00d.. very educational....

by the way.. a lil word to the people every where...

Being a hacker doesnt mean you know ALL coz nobody can know it ALL.. technology changes everyday and basically one of the main goes of a hacker is to keep up with the changes... and learn as much as they can...

Coz i always get the shits when someone asks me something and they get pissed off at me or get disapponted at me coz i dont know the answer.. i mean like.. i can answer MOST of your questions but not ALL...

chsh
December 3rd, 2001, 02:09 PM
Well Ennis, I agree with most others around here. It was pretty well written and useful for the newbies.

By the by, just because someone doesn't have a website doesn't mean they're programming inept or anything, it probably means (in the case of programmers) that they're just too busy to do maintain it.

PS: not all Canadians are jackasses y'know. We've got the same varying degree of people that the rest of the world has.

tekfrost
December 3rd, 2001, 03:12 PM
Great posts hehbris.

virtaava
December 3rd, 2001, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Alcatraz
I like it, I've always thought reading about hacking ethics was fun. You shuld read The Hacker Ethic and the Spirit of the Information
Age by Pekka Himanen, great book, one of my favorites. :)

evilseed
December 4th, 2001, 12:37 AM
heh.. Ya.. I win..

hehehe

And Ennis that was a good post.

xn--bitch-stfu
April 3rd, 2006, 05:34 PM
Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=128105#post288137) by hehbris
1) posting messages on a forum is not considered stalking in this jurisdiction
2) irish is not a race, it is a nationality lecho

qwertyman66
April 3rd, 2006, 06:01 PM
xn: This thread is five years dead. Leave it dead. Unless you have something useful to contribute to them, leave threads with the date flashing on the last post alone. I won't neg you, but others might for this. Please take a look at the stickies in the newbie forum here (http://www.antionline.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=251402).
And Welcome to AO. Sorry for the negative start, we are all friendly really...honest.

Tiger Shark
April 3rd, 2006, 08:19 PM
we are all friendly really...honest.

No we're not... You lie like a cheap Japanese watch... We're vicious... ;)

nihil
April 3rd, 2006, 08:39 PM
Actually, Tiger and the rest are pretty much OK...............but me, now I AM viscious,

I even have IRS personal phone numbers :eek:

Be afraid,..................be very afraid

;)

OH! and welcome to AO :D